1911 Light triggers vs. `Duty` triggers

[moredes]

There:s a thread runnin, mostly regarding a question about tuning a lighter-than-`average` trigger so that it is crisp.

I:ve been away from 1911 IPSC-type competitions for >20 years, and I haven:t followed the technology since I stopped competing. I:ve got a 1911 with a 3 1/4lb `glass-break` trigger, or so the OEM claims. I wouldn:t want mine any lighter; I don:t know that I could feel the difference anyway in rapid-fire (unless I was shooting bullseye), this one:s so clean, I was surprised it weighed in at 3lb 7oz on the electronic trigger scale. (and I:ve got a good trigger finger for :sensitivity:; I also do a lot of BR shooting)

My question is for those competitors who:ve had experience with both types of set-ups (light vs. duty-weight triggers) while competing. What:s the advantage of a <2lb. trigger? I can:t believe one can feel the difference, or substantially increase speed times in double-taps solely because of the change in trigger pull? Or is the < 2lb pull so much an aid in the single shots that it decreases times over a `duty` pull ?

 

[Rivers]

Just curious, and this is a little off-subject, do you do BR with a 3# trigger?

 

[cntryboy1289]

My take on it

From my point of view, yes you can tell the difference if you concentrate enough on it. A bench rest rifle is different to me since I concentrate on the TP much more. With a BR rifle, you are talking thousandths of an inch making a big difference in your score. With pistol shooting, I don't sit there and think about the squeeze so much as I concentrate on keeping the front sight on target. Now if you have a heavy pull that you have to really squeeze hard to get it to fire, then it would come into play more.

My own gun has a 3 3/4lb pull that breaks very smooth and has the overtravel adjusted out and it pulls without me having to think about it so much. I am not into the race games myself and don't need the TP to be any lower, if it was I wouldn't have a problem with taking it down lower.

 

[HSMITH]

I have shot triggers from 1.5 pounds to 7 pounds in competition, and my scores don't show a difference. There are other guys that have guns with 4-6 pound pulls and show a significant improvement after having a 2 pound trigger job.

I more or less came from a GI 1911 and DA revolver background. I use what amounts to 'trigger slap' on most shots out to 15 yards or a little more in competition, further than that and it is more of a high speed 'press' on the trigger. DA revolver shooting taught me to keep the front sight where you want and stroke the trigger through and that is the technique I use. People that haven't come from a DA revolver background typically use a 'take up, align, press press press bang' type of technique and lighter triggers help them do that process faster with less sight disturbance.

Where you came from and what technique you use has a big influence on whether the weight of pull is going to be a big factor.

Double tapping the targets is a bad thing, to shoot fast and accurately you have to shoot at whatever speed you can align the sights and break the shot. Double tapping shooters will hit a skill level and flatten out, they won't get past it and continue to get better until they shoot the sights on every single shot. They also often pick up substantial amounts of speed when they start shooting the sights too. You can see and shoot the sights faster than you can yank the trigger twice.

 

[Rivers]

Mr. Smith, are you saying that your scores are so bad that a lighter trigger doesn't help?

 

[Unclenick]

HSMITH,

I like the DA background. If more people would try to learn a DA trigger, I think the idea of follow-through would be cleared up for many of them. I have found at least a weak correlation between an old bull's eye shooter's test and the need for a light trigger. You extend the index and middle finger of your non-shooting hand (add in the ring finger if you like) and grasp them like a grip frame with your shooting hand. Now try to operate your trigger finger so your extended non-shooting hand's fingers don't feel any movement in the shooting hand's palm. This can be impossible for some people. I can't quite make it work perfectly with my shooting hand (right for me) but can do it just fine with my weak hand. Shooting with my weak hand is slower, but I tend to have much better trigger control with it. My dominant right eye doesn't like the change, though. Anyway, if you have a lot of movement in the grip of the shooting hand, lighter triggers can minimize it. Mine isn't bad enough to require it.

When I took my first NRA instructor's certification (rifle) our Councillor was Web Wright, who still had some 300 meter world records standing at the time (I haven't checked lately to see if they still do?). One thing that bothered him about the various courses of instruction was that the declared fundamentals or basics kept changing. One year the materials would have the 5 principles of marksmanship. Another year it would be 8. Etecetera. He felt that if something were truly fundamental, it would never change. It was his opinion that there are just two shooting fundamentals:

1) Align the gun so the bullet will strike the center of the target.
2) Keep it that way until after the bullet has cleared the muzzle.

How you get these two things to happen and what equipment and setup you need to get there is up for grabs and may change with next year's innovation.

Nick

 

[HSMITH]

Rivers, I am not a great shooter by any means. I have won B class at some of the local club matches and generally finish pretty high, so I guess I just suck less at it than most. I have a lot of learning to do yet, and with worrying about gadgets and trigger pull etc out of the way I can keep shooting and making progress

 

[Tim R]

I:ve got a 1911 with a 3 1/4lb `glass-break` trigger, or so the OEM claims. I wouldn:t want mine any lighter; I don:t know that I could feel the difference anyway in rapid-fire (unless I was shooting bullseye),

Bullseye requires a 4 1/2 pound trigger to be legal for EIC matches.

 

[Harry Bonar]

1911 trigger

Hey! Guys!
Tommy Campbell said, "Don't come off the trigger."
What he meant was that with the 1911 what most fellas do after the shot is to let the trigger finger off of the trigger (loose contact).
He showed me that if you, yes, let your trigger go forward with the trigger it takes less time for a second shot because your trigger finger hasn't lost contact with the trigger face but you've allowed the disconnector to "re-set." A second shot (double tap) is very much quicker.
On a D.A. revolver it's a very different thing - you must be sure you've allowed your trigger to go forward all the way so things can re-set - otherwise you can "jamb-up" a D.A. real good; it could cost you your life.
Harry B.

 

[Rivers]

I'll accept, of course, Mr. Smith's revelation that he doesn't shoot any better with a 2# trigger than he does with a 7# trigger. Having run a few hundred thousand rounds downrange myself, I just can't relate to that and find it hard to fathom.

 

[HSMITH]

Rivers, what competitive disciplines do you shoot in?

I should have been specific that in IPSC and IDPA competition I don't shoot any higher scores with a 2# trigger than I do with a heavier trigger. Bullseye or PPC? Yeah, I am going to turn in higher scores with the 2# trigger for sure. One side is high speed and a fairly large scoring area, the other side is pure accuracy oriented and at a much slower pace. The original poster was asking about IPSC, so that is what my reply was oriented to rather than a broad statement of which works better over many disciplines.


Harry, I don't ride the trigger at all and it seems that most of the top action shooters don't do it either. I don't know of any action shooting trainers that are teaching students to ride the trigger. Takes too long to feel the reset and then press again when you can just let your finger off and start back. I think coming off the trigger is a much easier technique to become proficient at also, especially when the adrenaline hits. On a 10 yard IPSC target I can run .18-.22 second splits with good A zone hits without a problem and it seems to be fast enough where I can work on other things for much larger gains. For me about .13-.14 second splits is as fast as my finger will go, lots of fun on a close target but not much use at any distance for me.....

 

[Hunter Customs]

I'm not sure what's being considered as a duty trigger but if we are talking light as being 1.5 to 2 lbs and duty triggers being 4 lbs and heavier, in speed shooting I feel it does make a difference.
Back when I practiced my butt off to get to the top in pin shooting I can guarantee I would not have got to the top with a 4lb trigger pull.
Pin shooting was both an accuracy and speed game if you were not shooting 5 for 5 very fast you were not going to win.
To put this into perspective my fastest time for a 5 pin regulation set (tiered table two up three down), timed using a last shot buzz timer was 1.65 seconds.
I was consistantly shooting sub 2 second tables averaging around 1.9 seconds again these times were timed with a last shot buzz timer and the gun I was using with the 1.5 pound trigger pull was a very big factor in me being able to do this.
Shooting at that speed it's to easy with a 4 lb trigger to pull a shot off target.
In shooting USPSA/IPSC I can't say that I need a trigger at 1.5 lbs but I do not feel that the light trigger ever hurt my scores either.
There's several forms of speed steel and when it comes to shooting plate racks I'll take the light trigger every time.
In closing I can't say that light triggers are best for everyone, as I said in another post on this topic we all must know our skill level and what works best for us. However most top flight shooters that I've ever talked with are using 2lbs or less trigger pulls.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

 

[Rivers]

Herr Smith, the only shooting disciplines in which I've participated are the "shoot at very small objects and consistently hit them" disciplines. Please note that I didn't indicate in any way that I didn't believe you...just that, in paucity of my experience, I've found lighter triggers to be quicker and more accurate, for me, than heavier triggers.

For me, to go from a 2# trigger, in any discipline, to a 7# trigger, in a handgun, of course, would be unthinkable. Again, I'm not doubting you, just saying that, for me, that scenario seems nonsensical.

 

[HSMITH]

OK Rivers. Sorry if I sounded like I was rebutting your post, I didn't intend to. I took no offense to your post either, and I appreciate your courtesy. I was just curious what your competitive background was.

Like you I would very much prefer a 2# trigger for accuracy intensive shooting with an autopistol though I am just as accurate if not better slow fire shooting a good revolver double action. Rapid fire (bullseye rapid fire) is another matter, the 2# trigger wins there.

I THINK we agree but are coming at it from two different angles......

For me, in USPSA shooting, I end up shooting a very fast press on long targets and/or tight targets and slapping the trigger on targets that are closer. The scoring area is really pretty darn big even at the speed we shoot at. You can get away with quite a bit and still hit the top scoring area. The top scoring area on the metric target most often seen is 4" wide x almost 16" high just for reference. It is HUGE until you try to take speed to the limits of your ability, the faster you go the more it can shrink on a bad day LOL.

Thanks for the exchange!!

 

[moredes]

Thanks for all the frank and clean replies. The info is much appreciated. I think I:ll probably end up staying with the heavier `duty`-weight trigger til my shooting seems to lack the `extra` speed tool to take me to the next threshold.

Rivers,

I shoot BR with a 20 ounce Canjar in a tweaked Rem 700, and long-range rifle (to 1000) with a 3 1/2 lb. trigger. It:s kind of `apples and oranges`, but I like too many different games to stick with one.