1911 cocked and unlocked carry

[Slowpoke Rodriguez]

In anticipation of the coming dark age, I have purchased an old school Rock Island GI-type 1911. It will live in a Safariland ALS holster which is similar to my duty one: Positive retention lock, covered trigger.

I would've sprung for the Series 80-type firing pin safety, but wanted a plain-jane GI-type weapon, and the Rock Island was what was available, Kalifornia DOJ list and all that. I might have it nickel plated someday, like in "The Killer Elite"...

I used the 1911 in the Army, and have no problem with the grip safety, but I am left-handed and here in the World, I plan to carry as such. I know ambi safeties are readily available, but I don't want to mess with the simplicity of the basic platform if possible.

It is something I would never advise another on principle, but I am thinking about carrying cocked and UNlocked. I can't really see a problem with it practically:

-The holster is a thumb release, and my trigger finger doesn't enter the guard until the barrel is parallel to the ground and on target, at which point the safety would be deactivated anyway;

-The safety acts upon the sear, and in the theoretical event of a parts failure, would result in a UD regardless, as there is no firing pin safety, so it's moot whether the safety is on or off;

-When holstering, my thumb blocks the hammer, holding it back physically;

-The safety must be released prior to clearing the weapon, so there is no advantage there;

-The trigger weight is going to be standard out-of-the-box GI (5-6 lbs, I hope...);

-The grip safety blocks the trigger if the weapon is not held.

Is there something I'm failing to consider? I just don't see how the weapon could fire unless my finger pulls the trigger...

 

[Cosmodragoon]

I'm normally a DA/SA guy but that's me. In your case, is it really all that different than those popular striker-fired guns without a manual safety? Yeah, they might have a trigger dingus but 1911s have a grip safety. The SA trigger might be a little lighter or a bit more crisp but is it really a problem? I think it comes down to whether you are personally comfortable, competent, and safe with your choice.

 

[Ibmikey]

What Cosmo said...plus.....it's your leg, go for it.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I'm a lefty too and opted for an ambi safety. I believe any gunsmith can install one fairly easily.

That said, I don't disagree with your thought process but wanted to point out that you do have another option.

 

[g.willikers]

You have considered that the only really reliable safety is between the ears.
Carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked would probably only cause grief if there was enough wear and tear or improper fit to cause the hammer to slip the sear without the trigger being pulled.
An 80 series might be a better choice for that possibility.

 

[smee78]

I do agree that it is just like a striker fired gun in that it still has a safety that will be disengaged, grip VS trigger lever.

However I think just getting an ambi safety is a safer bet. The gun is designed to have the external safety used. The ambi is a cheap and easy install and if for some reason anyone were to ever touch your gun would they know you don't keep the safety on?

I just don't see any positive side to this when the "ambi fix" is cheap and easy?

 

[BILLG]

It is NOT just like a striker fired gun.Sorry but you are an accident waiting to happen if you carry it cocked and unlocked.Get the ambi safety.

 

[g.willikers]

When I was a regular match attendee, RO and match director, we often allowed some of the trustworthy regulars to start each stage (often as many as six per match) with the hammer cocked on their DA/SA pistols.
Otherwise they continually whined about being at an unfair disadvantage.
But with the understanding if they had an AD, they were disqualified from the entire match and would never be trusted to start that way ever again.
There were plenty of others with 1911s who also sneakily did that and disabled their grip safeties, too.
ROs are no match for gamers.
We never had a single AD from that quarter.
The safety between their ears was always operational.

 

[Sharkbite]

BAD IDEA!!!

You are essentially correct that the 1911 thumb safety blocks the sear from moving and the grip safety blocks the trigger from moving.

So, with the thumb safety OFF, what keeps the sear from moving in the event the gun is jared (car accident, slip and fall, anything)?

Your gun is also missing the fireing pin block (series 80). So basically you are relying on the halfcock notch to keep the gun from putting a round down your leg, if you trip and fall?

Bad idea, Brother.

Additionally, the holster you have chosen does not have a thumb break or retention strap to interpose between the hammer and slide when holstered.

I grew up shooting, carrying and teaching with a 1911. I understand the gun better than most folks. What you are proposing is dangerous.

A simple addition of an ambi safety would fix the issue and allow you to use the pistol in the accepted manner. Believe me, with proper technique, that safety will NOT slow you down AT ALL. Not 100th of a second difference to the first shot.

Zero difference to engagement and a MUCH safer carry mode

 

[Slowpoke Rodriguez]

How much safer, really?

Thanks for the replies, especially Sharkbite, who brings up some good points.

I wanted a series 80, but it was not available in the style I wanted. I think a weakness of the basic design by modern standards is the lack of a firing pin block, but it's more of a theoretical than practical issue.

I agree the ambi safety is an easy fix. And, indeed, the holster does expose the hammer.

I had forgotten about the half cock notch, which seems like an additional reason not to worry about it...just sayin'.

Does anyone have actual experience of a UD resulting from a dropped weapon? What about from a bad sear?

All my personal anecdotes of UDs basically resulted from somebody pulling the trigger...

 

[Sharkbite]

Ive never seen one go bang if dropped, but i would not personally chance it.

I did have one go Full-auto on me After the initial shock, it was a lot of fun. Had to take it into the armory eventually and get it repaired

That gun would empty the magazine when you dropped the slide to load it. So, slide locked open, insert mag, finger off the trigger, release the slide...Cyclic rate of fire!!! The half cock DIDNT do squat.

 

[Slamfire]

The original method of carry was to chamber a round, lower the hammer, and carry the pistol in the flap holster loaded with the hammer down. The M1911 was to be drawn and thumb cocked when circumstances called for it.

Modern M1911's have these beavertail grips that make thumb cocking difficult, but original, pre WW2 pistols have wide hammer spurs and it is easy to thumb cock the things. I think this is safer than carrying a M1911 cocked an unlocked.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Get the ambidextrous safety. Save the original parts. You can always return it to the original configuration when you stop using it.

And ambidextrous safety doesn't really mess with the simplicity of the basic platform. It's just an additional lever on the other side. There's no modification to the gun. All the fitting is done on the safety.

For a gun to be carried, safety and utility, not looks, should be your primary consideration.

 

[CockNBama]

I recall a comment made by Jeff Cooper in a column about conditions of carry, asserting that the Australian SAS carried their Browning Hi Power pistols cocked and unlocked. He observed that, at least as of that time, the SAS had never suffered an accidental discharge.

Are you that disciplined and competent?

I'm not, and find that the manual safeties on my guns are manageable. Of course, I don't impose rules on my guns that obviate the configuration of their features or controls.

 

[publius]

Ambi safety, it doesn't complicate things. Reholstering would probably be my biggest worry about cocked and unlocked. All it would take is for something to make positive contact with that trigger(thumb snap, belt loop, etc.) and boom.

 

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper once said that while he did not recommend off-safe carry, he knew of a super spook agency that did so, with no ADs reported. So you can get away with it.

But to say that a cocked and unlocked 1911 is "no different from a Glock" is incorrect. The 1911 has .020" of sear engagement holding back a 23 lb mainspring. The Glock has a .100" striker lug against a partly tensioned 5 lb spring.

I also recommend the ambidextrous safety. Parts are available in stainless which can be polished up to go with your nickel plate.
The question is WHICH ambi. Since you will be using it all the time, you need a strong one. When I was buying, the King's had the best setup but they are no longer in business. I would now consider either the Wilson Bullet Proof or the EGW with its sleeved joint.

 

[Moonglum]

The first handgun I ever owned was a S&W model 915, it was designed to be carried decocked, in DA mode but I didn’t know that.

Almost everyone I knew at the time was an M1911 aficionado and they all carried in condition one, generally in a level one retention holster with the strap seated between the hammer and the firing pin.

Not knowing any better I carried my 915 like that for 6 months until someone squared me away.

Now in case I haven’t made myself explicitly clear here I walked around with a cocked and unlocked pistol in my holster for 6 months.

Now as UNSAFE as I now KNOW this is, I have to admit the pistol never “went off” during that time.

 

[44 AMP]

I think a weakness of the basic design by modern standards is the lack of a firing pin block, but it's more of a theoretical than practical issue.

By MODERN standards....

And yes, I agree that it is more of a theoretical than a practical matter.

First off, a little history.. Browning, apparently, (and I say apparently because we have nothing in writing from him specifically stating so) thought the pistol was safe enough without a manual safety.

The 1910 prototype submitted to the Army did not have one. The Army (particularly the cavalry) wanted a manual safety. The primary concern was reholstering a loaded pistol while on horseback. Browning redesigned the pistol to include a manual safety (thumb safety, called the "safety lock" in GI repair manuals), and the rest is history.

Note how it took around 70 YEARS of DAILY use by our military and others, before there was a firing pin block system put in (series 80). Why do you think it was??

Personally, I think it was put it so the Government Model could pass the unrealistic CA drop test "safety standards and be allowed to be sold in CA.

yes, under JUST THE RIGHT CONDITIONS, you can get a loaded cocked 1911A1 to fire when "dropped". As I recall, the lab doing the CA testing had to build a special fixture to get the 1911A1 to do it, but they DID get it to happen.

Most of us feel that the CA tests were not about actual safety, they were about how many pistols they could find "faults" in, and ban them, under the claim of "safety".

In your case, you're a left hander with a pistol built for right hand operation, so you are at a degree of disadvantage there. HOW MUCH depends on a lot of things. The biggest one is the safety, and with the ambi safetys available today, its is something easily overcome.

An ambi safety does not change the field stripping of the gun, at all. It does change the detail stripping of the gun, slightly, but only slightly.

If your overriding desire is to keep the gun original, then you must live the limitations of the original design. IF you want the most practical benefit from your gun, then an ambidextrous safety is a useful and desirable feature.

OR, you could search for one of the Randall's. They still show up, from time to time. Good Luck getting any quantity of the left handed magazines, though!

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Get an ambi safety. I did.

The one time I was almost shot by accident was a guy holstering a loaded 1911. Bang, a foot away from my foot. Exciting for a bit of time as we checked for damages.

 

[Sharkbite]

Yes, but the Military usage of the 1911 on horseback bears LITTLE resemblance to CCWing the gun today.

They carried the gun in condition 3 (empty chamber) and only charged the gun when needed. They NEVER intended the gun to be carried regularly with a round in the chamber (safety or no)