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1891 Argentine Mauser, 7.65mm
- Thread starter pack_rat
- Start date
Harley Nolden
Staff In Memoriam
Pack_Rat:
I hope this is the type of information you are requesting.
Argentine Mauser 1891:
This is the first Mauser magazine rifle, having the protruding box single line magazine found in the Belgian 1889 and the Turkish 1890. Made in Germany The Argentine Mauser is little more that the Turkish Mauser Model of 1890 with some very small modifications. There were minor changes to the bolt and the extractor was straightened. Apart from this they were virtually identical. Refer to Turkish Mauser for Further information.
During the development of the M89, Mauser had a contract to make the M87 rifle for Turkey, one based upon the M71/84 action. A clause in the contract provided Turkey with the benefit of any improvements made to the Mauser actions. After more than 200,000 M87's were made, Turkey insisted that the rest of the contract be filled with rifles based on the Model 89 action. Mauser made upward of 280,000 of these M89 rifles and some carbines.
Argentine Mauser 1909:
Made in Germany (principally by DWM) for Argentina and since WWII in Argentine government plant. This is essentially the German Service GEW. (rifle)98 but made in 7.65mm. Sights were graduated to conform to the ballistics of the Spitzer pointed bullet adopted in 1909
HJN
[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited October 05, 2000).]
I hope this is the type of information you are requesting.
Argentine Mauser 1891:
This is the first Mauser magazine rifle, having the protruding box single line magazine found in the Belgian 1889 and the Turkish 1890. Made in Germany The Argentine Mauser is little more that the Turkish Mauser Model of 1890 with some very small modifications. There were minor changes to the bolt and the extractor was straightened. Apart from this they were virtually identical. Refer to Turkish Mauser for Further information.
During the development of the M89, Mauser had a contract to make the M87 rifle for Turkey, one based upon the M71/84 action. A clause in the contract provided Turkey with the benefit of any improvements made to the Mauser actions. After more than 200,000 M87's were made, Turkey insisted that the rest of the contract be filled with rifles based on the Model 89 action. Mauser made upward of 280,000 of these M89 rifles and some carbines.
Argentine Mauser 1909:
Made in Germany (principally by DWM) for Argentina and since WWII in Argentine government plant. This is essentially the German Service GEW. (rifle)98 but made in 7.65mm. Sights were graduated to conform to the ballistics of the Spitzer pointed bullet adopted in 1909
HJN
[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited October 05, 2000).]
Good info, Harley; it sounds like the Turks had a pretty smart contract writer.
The only problems with those guns is that sometimes the magazine springs have lost some tension over the years. Otherwise, they are good rifles if used with the proper ammo and kept in the proper operating pressure (40-42k cup). They should not be converted to any more powerful calibers, and no other than the proper ammo should be fired in them.
7.65 Argentine is available from Norma. The price is high, but reloading dies are readily available, and loading info is in most loading manuals.
The caliber is adequate for deer hunting.
Jim
The only problems with those guns is that sometimes the magazine springs have lost some tension over the years. Otherwise, they are good rifles if used with the proper ammo and kept in the proper operating pressure (40-42k cup). They should not be converted to any more powerful calibers, and no other than the proper ammo should be fired in them.
7.65 Argentine is available from Norma. The price is high, but reloading dies are readily available, and loading info is in most loading manuals.
The caliber is adequate for deer hunting.
Jim
Thanks for the info.
I work with a fellow who has one of these rifles for deer hunting. The ammo for it is running low and he has expressed interest in reloading. He mentioned that the magazine is missing. This struck me as odd, since I wasn't aware of the old Mausers having a detachable magazine.
Gracias,
armus_rattus
I work with a fellow who has one of these rifles for deer hunting. The ammo for it is running low and he has expressed interest in reloading. He mentioned that the magazine is missing. This struck me as odd, since I wasn't aware of the old Mausers having a detachable magazine.
Gracias,
armus_rattus
average american
New member
I am the guy that fal308 is feferring to as the owner of a few (3) of these Argentine Mausers. They are indeed good rifles as long as reloads are kept in the proper pressure range. You can get brass and ammo for 7.65 Mauser from Norma, but i find it a whole lot cheaper to make the cases from 30-06 cases. Just anneal them, full length resize, and trim to length. .311 diameter bullets are available in 150 and 180 grain weights. Load data is kind of scarce, but for those two weights it can be found. If you want to run any specific questions by me, be my guest and i'll try to help.
By the way, i too have had good luck in obtaining parts for them from the Gun Parts Corp.
By the way, i too have had good luck in obtaining parts for them from the Gun Parts Corp.
average american
New member
Jim and Harley posted some good info on these rifles,the mag capacity on them is 5 rounds though. Perhaps he read somewhere that to avoid the spring fatigue problem that it is wise to load just four? I haven't personally encountered that problem but with a firearm of that age, it wouldn't surprise me.
Hi, Average,
You are 100% correct about the capacity of the original magazine. However, the ones advertised by Gun Parts Corp. are stated as being 4 round and it was those magazines to which I was referring. (I don't know why the reduction in capacity.)
As to making brass from .30-'06, just be aware that the base size of the 7.65 is larger than that of the .30-'06 so cases made from the latter tend to swell when fired. This normally is of no concern, but just something to know and watch for any problems.
Jim
You are 100% correct about the capacity of the original magazine. However, the ones advertised by Gun Parts Corp. are stated as being 4 round and it was those magazines to which I was referring. (I don't know why the reduction in capacity.)
As to making brass from .30-'06, just be aware that the base size of the 7.65 is larger than that of the .30-'06 so cases made from the latter tend to swell when fired. This normally is of no concern, but just something to know and watch for any problems.
Jim
pack_rat,
I have one too, but a carbine (sporterized stock), but the numbers all match.
I just ordered some 7.65 Argentine brass formed from 30-06 from here http://www.buffaloarms.com/
(hope it's the right site)
phone 208-263-6953 (Idaho) phone's right, called today.
$34 per 100
and got come RCBS dies from MidwayUSA for $45
Lee is less, but I like RCBS
I've seen diff. loads say diff bullet dia,all the way from .311 to .313 in one. Gonna have a buddy "slug" the barrel to be safe.
Happy shooting. I want to find a load that will work w/ the original sights.... wish me luck.
Kaliburz
[This message has been edited by Kaliburz (edited October 17, 2000).]
I have one too, but a carbine (sporterized stock), but the numbers all match.
I just ordered some 7.65 Argentine brass formed from 30-06 from here http://www.buffaloarms.com/
(hope it's the right site)
phone 208-263-6953 (Idaho) phone's right, called today.
$34 per 100
and got come RCBS dies from MidwayUSA for $45
Lee is less, but I like RCBS
I've seen diff. loads say diff bullet dia,all the way from .311 to .313 in one. Gonna have a buddy "slug" the barrel to be safe.
Happy shooting. I want to find a load that will work w/ the original sights.... wish me luck.
Kaliburz
[This message has been edited by Kaliburz (edited October 17, 2000).]
This is just an FYI for all of you. Something..."different" about my 1891 Argentine Mauser. THE INFORMATION CONTAINED BELOW ONLY APPLIES TO MY 1891. THIS IS JUST AN FYI FOR PEOPLE.
Well, as I posted a buddy and I slugged the barrel. We found out that this particular 91 has a tighter barrel then "normal?". We used a .309" pure lead bullet to slug it. The rifling bit into the bullet enough to smash the gas checks and it could be felt that it was spinning as we pushed it down.
With this info (and after a try w/ a FMJ) and it was tight, enough to put rifling marks on the bullet (we backed it out). My buddy figured we try to load .308" bullets.
We loaded 20 rounds using 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. On paper, the bullets flew straight, did not key hole. For accuracy, the load we used was accurate. We shot at a 500 yd target w/ the sights set on 5 (windy too) and with the open sights, were able to hit the tire/rim assembly once and hit w/in three feet with the rest. We were running low on ammo and had a 8+ MPH cross wind...so we really coulding do "scientific" testing (paper groups so on). (We strapped the gun vice to the shooting table and used a string to pull the trigger to test the gun...it was fine). The case had no signs of high pressure. No flattened primers, no splits or cracks. Extraction was easy.
This load was developed by my friend. My Hornady book lists this powder but not this rifle/bullet grain at all. On the list of powders, this is a slower burning powder compaired to the list given in Hornady.
Here's the load:
CASE: reformed 30-06 new military
PRIMER: CCI 200 and CCI 220
POWDER/grns: IMR 4350 45.0gr
(This amount of powder filled the case right up to the bottom of the neck.
BULLET: 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
COL: 2.920"
(At this length, the round chambered in this particular gun.)
Recoil was mild to low.
Many of you may not approve of the use of "undersized" bullets. For this particular case, my friend (with 35+ years experiance in loading, shooting and "back yard gunsmithing") beleived a .308" (30 cal) bullet instead of the .311"/.312" would be better for this rifle. (Basically, using the factory .311" would have been like shooting a 45 in a 44 barrel.) The slugging of the barrel and the results of the limited testing showed that it worked for this rifle.
AGAIN, THIS IS A FYI FOR PEOPLE ON MY EXPERIANCE W/ MY 1891 MAUSER. IF YOUR'S CAN USE 30 CAL, YA GOT A BETTER SELECTION...as my buddy says.
Slug your barrel and see what you find.....
Kaliburz
-Ya learn somthing every day.
Remember to vote and happy shooting...while we still can....
[This message has been edited by Kaliburz (edited October 25, 2000).]
Well, as I posted a buddy and I slugged the barrel. We found out that this particular 91 has a tighter barrel then "normal?". We used a .309" pure lead bullet to slug it. The rifling bit into the bullet enough to smash the gas checks and it could be felt that it was spinning as we pushed it down.
With this info (and after a try w/ a FMJ) and it was tight, enough to put rifling marks on the bullet (we backed it out). My buddy figured we try to load .308" bullets.
We loaded 20 rounds using 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. On paper, the bullets flew straight, did not key hole. For accuracy, the load we used was accurate. We shot at a 500 yd target w/ the sights set on 5 (windy too) and with the open sights, were able to hit the tire/rim assembly once and hit w/in three feet with the rest. We were running low on ammo and had a 8+ MPH cross wind...so we really coulding do "scientific" testing (paper groups so on). (We strapped the gun vice to the shooting table and used a string to pull the trigger to test the gun...it was fine). The case had no signs of high pressure. No flattened primers, no splits or cracks. Extraction was easy.
This load was developed by my friend. My Hornady book lists this powder but not this rifle/bullet grain at all. On the list of powders, this is a slower burning powder compaired to the list given in Hornady.
Here's the load:
CASE: reformed 30-06 new military
PRIMER: CCI 200 and CCI 220
POWDER/grns: IMR 4350 45.0gr
(This amount of powder filled the case right up to the bottom of the neck.
BULLET: 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
COL: 2.920"
(At this length, the round chambered in this particular gun.)
Recoil was mild to low.
Many of you may not approve of the use of "undersized" bullets. For this particular case, my friend (with 35+ years experiance in loading, shooting and "back yard gunsmithing") beleived a .308" (30 cal) bullet instead of the .311"/.312" would be better for this rifle. (Basically, using the factory .311" would have been like shooting a 45 in a 44 barrel.) The slugging of the barrel and the results of the limited testing showed that it worked for this rifle.
AGAIN, THIS IS A FYI FOR PEOPLE ON MY EXPERIANCE W/ MY 1891 MAUSER. IF YOUR'S CAN USE 30 CAL, YA GOT A BETTER SELECTION...as my buddy says.
Slug your barrel and see what you find.....
Kaliburz
-Ya learn somthing every day.
Remember to vote and happy shooting...while we still can....
[This message has been edited by Kaliburz (edited October 25, 2000).]
Harley Nolden
Staff In Memoriam
Pack_Rat:
Hope this will clear up some of your questions.
ARGENTINE Mauser 7.65X53 Ammunition
Introduced: 1889
Countries Used: Belgian
Bolivia
Columbia
Ecuador
Peru
Turkey
Other Names: 7.65mm Mauser
Type: Rimless, Necked
Centerfire
Overall Length: 3.06"
Avg. Wgt: 417 Gr.
Type Pwdr: Nitrocellulose
Approx. Chg: 39.5Gr.
Primer: Boxer, Berdan 5.5mm
Cartridge Case:
Length: 2.09"
Lngth Head to shoulder 1.75"
Shoulder length: .10"
Neck length: . 24"
Dia. At Rim .474"
Base: .470"
Neck: .340"
Shoulder: .425"
Bore . 301"
Groove . 311"
Twist: 9.8
BULLET:
Type: Jacketed Rnd. Nose
Dia. .311"
Wgt. 1)150
2)174
3)175
4)180 Norma
5)185 BT Military
6)211 Military
7)150 Norma SP
M-Velocity: M-Energy:
1)2810 f.p.s. 2638 ft.lb.
2)2590 2600
3)2560 2550
4)2590 2685
5)2467 2510
6)2132 2150
7)2920 2841
Length: 1.20"
BALLISTICS: (Approx)
Pressure: 39000 lb./sq.in.
Twist: 10"
Cases can be made from empty 30-06 or 7.7mm Jap Brass Bullet sizes which can be used with reasonable accuracy .311/.312
HJN
Hope this will clear up some of your questions.
ARGENTINE Mauser 7.65X53 Ammunition
Introduced: 1889
Countries Used: Belgian
Bolivia
Columbia
Ecuador
Peru
Turkey
Other Names: 7.65mm Mauser
Type: Rimless, Necked
Centerfire
Overall Length: 3.06"
Avg. Wgt: 417 Gr.
Type Pwdr: Nitrocellulose
Approx. Chg: 39.5Gr.
Primer: Boxer, Berdan 5.5mm
Cartridge Case:
Length: 2.09"
Lngth Head to shoulder 1.75"
Shoulder length: .10"
Neck length: . 24"
Dia. At Rim .474"
Base: .470"
Neck: .340"
Shoulder: .425"
Bore . 301"
Groove . 311"
Twist: 9.8
BULLET:
Type: Jacketed Rnd. Nose
Dia. .311"
Wgt. 1)150
2)174
3)175
4)180 Norma
5)185 BT Military
6)211 Military
7)150 Norma SP
M-Velocity: M-Energy:
1)2810 f.p.s. 2638 ft.lb.
2)2590 2600
3)2560 2550
4)2590 2685
5)2467 2510
6)2132 2150
7)2920 2841
Length: 1.20"
BALLISTICS: (Approx)
Pressure: 39000 lb./sq.in.
Twist: 10"
Cases can be made from empty 30-06 or 7.7mm Jap Brass Bullet sizes which can be used with reasonable accuracy .311/.312
HJN
Thats most interesting..how military designers' minds work in tandem! .. also as the ".303British" is the same(approx.311/.312")bullet diameter as this round, which is incidentially the same as the more modern 7.62X39mm Russian SKS type assault cartridge.
I have tried the latter projectiles in my Enfield made #1 Mk3 ** SMLE -but being shorter OAL the magazine feeding problems stopped them being used for 'rapid fire stage' in SSAA Mil rifle matches.Accuracy was OK for big military targets up to 300m.
BB
------------------
If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.
I have tried the latter projectiles in my Enfield made #1 Mk3 ** SMLE -but being shorter OAL the magazine feeding problems stopped them being used for 'rapid fire stage' in SSAA Mil rifle matches.Accuracy was OK for big military targets up to 300m.
BB
------------------
If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.
josephhertel14
New member
mauser clip HELP!!!!!
i have just gottan a mauser argentine 1891 from my grandpa but there is no clip. can someone help me and tell me where i can get a clip for this gun.
THANKS FOR LOOOKING!!!!!!!!!!!
i have just gottan a mauser argentine 1891 from my grandpa but there is no clip. can someone help me and tell me where i can get a clip for this gun.
THANKS FOR LOOOKING!!!!!!!!!!!