180 grain load for S&W Model 19

[flintlock.50]

For nearly 40 years I've loaded mostly .38 spl for my S&W Model 19. I've "played" with some .357 loads, but only occasionally and they were never "full house" loads. Now I'd like to carry my 19 for personal protection while deer hunting and scouting in some serious pig and black bear country. I'm using the Hornady 180 grain XTP, 2400 powder and CCI 500 primers. I started slow and am up to 11.8 grains. Velocity is only around 950 fps.

What kind of velocity can I reasonably expect with my 4" barrel? I don't have a good benchmark for a 4" barrel versus the generally much longer barrels used in reloading manuals.

What is likely to be the maximum charge of 2400 I can go to?

Is there a better choice?

Thanks,

Flintlock

 

[Mike / Tx]

I usually bump up in caliber from the 357 to something with a little more horsepower for weights hitting 180 and up. That said though, just a quick look at the Western / Accurate data for AA-9 and a 180gr XTP, they show just over 1200fps using a 6" barrel. Figuring the loss for yours being a bit shorter, and you might could hit just over 1000fps with it doing some careful loading.

As for using 2400 and what you might get with it I haven't a clue. I have it on the shelf, I use it for some loads, but for the most part I like the Accurate line better. Most of the heavier weight bullets I use with my 357's are in the 170gr range and #9 does a fine job with those.

Wished I could offer more or better info.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...What is likely to be the maximum charge of 2400..." Sounds like you need to buy an Alliant manual. No 180's on their site, but max loads for a 170 is 14.5. 13.0 is the start load. For some daft reason they tested with a 10" barrel. Kind of stupid considering most .357's do not have 10" barrels. Anyway, buy a manual. I think you might be way under minimum for a 180.
There's 180 grain data, not for 2400 though, on Hodgdon's site(also tested with a 10" barrel). Lotta variation in velocity. Start loads running 611 FPS to Max loads of a tick over 1400 fps. None of which matter as you won't get anywhere near 1400 with a 4" barrel.

 

[flintlock.50]

I don't need the Alliant manual. I've seen their online data.

The Hornady manual lists 12.6 as the maximum for the 180 grain XTP bullet. I'm working towards that. But I've seen so much variation in published maximum load data that I was looking for some real life experience, especially for actual muzzle velocity.

Years ago, someone on this forum recommended HSM Bear Loads for my Mod 19, so I shot a box. They were 180 grain bullets and they sure felt like "full house" loads. Unfortunately I couldn't chronograph them, so I don't have any data to compare to my Hornady XTP loads.

Again, I was hoping someone on this forum had some personal experience. Absent any 180 grain experience, I was hoping some folks might share their favorite "hot" "heavy bullet" load for a 4" barrel.

 

[Hanshi]

2400 is always a good .357 powder. Rather than a jacketed 180 grain bullet I'd use a cast swc. I load the Thompson gc swc, 165 grains, over 12.5 grains of 2400 for 1150 fps in a 4" and 1200 fps in a 6". For only occasional use I load that same bullet over 15 grains of 2400 for 1450 fps. I don't shoot that top load in my M19 but carrying that load as a "just-in-case" would be okay since very limited shooting with it would be done. I like it, however, in my 686, 27 and 28. The first load is a mild one with plenty of power and will penetrate a hog's or bear's skull.

 

[Dufus]

I have shot a lot of 357 using A2400 (and Hercules before them) using all sorts of bullets.

If you are considering a load for defensive/protective environments in the field, forget about using any form of hollow point ammo. Hollow point bullets are not at all dependable or predictable in a cartridge such as 357 with heavy bullets simply because of velocity.

I would get a soft point or a SWC cast bullet and go for it.

 

[TheLastGoodFight]

I pack a 2in S&W model 19 for daily chores around the ranch place. Within it's chambers generally resides a 158gr "Keith Style" (if there is such a thing for .38/.357) SWC over 15gr of 2400. I set them in .38 spec cases and clearly label the as .357 so as to avoid mistakes. I read about this load years ago as a pet load of Mr. Skelton, and being a less than experimental fellow, have used it ever since.
I realize the 158gr is not what you asked about, so I am sorry for being "that guy" but the wiser contributors above are right; hollow points for pig/bear country could prove advantageous for the pigs and bears.
With the accuracy this load delivers in my two inch, I can only imagine it would increase out of your four.

 

[flintlock.50]

Sounds like good advice.

I've found a 165 grain SWC bullet with gas check at Matt's Bullets. I haven't found many other sources of cast bullets that look attractive. Anyone know anything about Matt's Bullets? Any other recommended sources of cast bullets?

Thanks!

 

[ligonierbill]

Velocity? I get 1,150 from a 4" GP-100 loading a 180 Cast Performance bullet over a good measure of H110. I don't think it offers anything over the classic 158 JHP at 1,300, so I'm using those bullets up for practice.

 

[Mike / Tx]

Check out Montana Bullet Works as well as Matt's Bullets.

They both offer a goodly selection of good cast bullets and designs.

 

[flintlock.50]

I ordered some 165 gr gc SWC bullets from Matt's Bullets. From what I've read, he makes very good bullets. They look like they'd be good medicine for pigs or bears if the situation demands.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[reddog81]

The model 19 isn't the gun I'd be using to test hotrod loads. If Hornady lists 12.6 as the max I'd consider that to be the max. Why not try some at 12.6 and see what the velocity is?

 

[flintlock.50]

As I described above, I've seen lots of variation, sometimes surprisingly large, among different manuals for "max load". So I was looking for any real life experience as I slowly worked up to the Hornady 12.6 grain load. (I started at 10.3, the Hornady manual's lowest load.)

My purpose is not to test "hot rod" loads. My previous experience is that I never get close to published velocities (even accounting for my 4" barrel). Also, the few boxes of factory ammo I've bought chronograph lots higher than I've been able to achieve even at "max load". Hence, I was looking for real life experience.

 

[Archie]

The Lyman #50 manual says:
With a 180 grain Hornady JHP (35771), the maximum charge is 12.6 grains of 2400 for 949 fps. The data was tested with both a Universal Receiver with a four inch barrel length. Pressure level is listed at 40,500 C.U.P. (Whatever that means for us mortals.)

That is the maximum load shown. As usual, that may or may not be maximum in your revolver.

All that said, I'd go with the hard cast 155-165 grain SWC about as fast as I can can throw it and keep it on a six inch disc at twenty five yards or so.
For that matter, I have a .44 Magnum I'd rather carry.

 

[NoSecondBest]

If you've already got the gun and barrel length is already set, any of the loading manuals will show the highest velocity with something like WW296 or H110. That simply isn't going to change. I don't understand the obsession with muzzle velocity. No matter what your chronograph says, you simply aren't going to perform any magic to go beyond "what you get, you get" with those powders. Your options would be to increase barrel length to pick up some additional speed. All that being said, I considered a lot of different guns in order to select my "perfect for me" woods walking handgun....for bears and other threatening critters. I have a lot of both where I spend my leisure time. Especially bears. I chose a Ruger SP101 3"bbl and put a set of Hogue grips on the gun. I'm shooting a full charge per Hornady loading manual. This manual shows a couple of powders giving more velocity....2400, AA9, and AA7. I tried all three and accuracy wasn't as good as it was with the WW296. At 25yds I can shoot this load into a ten shot 3.8" group shooting double action. I have target guns that shoot better and I can shoot my SW 686 with a 6"bbl better. However, this gun fits nicely into a shoulder holster or waist band better the larger guns. When trout fishing I like the shoulder holster because I can easily get it out of the holster wearing waders. I don't find the recoil to be unmanageable. I wouldn't want to shoot it all day, but if needed I probably wouldn't even be thinking about recoil anyway. No short magical answer to your question.

 

[TheLastGoodFight]

I've done some business with Missouri Bullet company, though most of their cast stuff has Brinell levels at or exceeding 18.
Though I've never bought their product, the owner of Dardas bullets has spent several hours on the phone with me trying to nail down an exact custom bullet for one of my Colts, and the same can be said for Mr. Palermo of Penn Bullet inc. They have excellent customer service and are willing to correct any problem you as a consumer may have. Give them a call for your casting needs if you're still looking for a source.

 

[flintlock.50]

Thanks. Good info.

 

[Nick_C_S]

(I haven't read all the replies.)

The Hornady 9th manual shows 2400 max charge at 12.6 grains. They were crimping at the top groove (me too - see below . . .)

I've dabbled with the 180 XTP just for fun. I only bought a box (100). I used W296 and just went middle of the road with the charge - didn't actually do a "workup" in the traditional sense. At the moment, I don't have access to my chrono data, but I think they were running about that same 950 f/s through my 4" 686.

2400 should do well. Bigger propellants - like W296 - may yield slightly higher velocities (with a proper workup - unlike what I did); but would do so with a lot more boom n flash. With a 4" bbl, I think 2400 is as good a way to go as any. 180's are better served in lever-action carbines. But I see your purpose too.

 

[flintlock.50]

Thanks Nick_C_S.

I've ordered some 165 grain SWC bullets from Matt's Bullets. I've since looked in my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. I bought that when I started casting for my Sharps .45-70. Never even thought about casting pistol bullets.

Their test data is with a 4" barrel, so it should be reasonably close to what I should see. They show four bullets in the 155-170 grain range. The lowest load of 2400 is 13.5 grains for the 158 grain bullet. The highest load is 15.5 grains for the 160 grain bullet! I'm very surprised there is so much difference between the max load for the 158 grain and 160 grain bullets. I can only suppose it's because of the bullet design, but both appear to have about the same contact surface between bullet and lands.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I've ordered some 165 grain SWC bullets from Matt's Bullets.

I like Matt's bullets. I use his 178 grain LSWC's - for 38 Special. Good bullet. I've used others' of his too - all with good results. My S&W guns seem to like the .359" diameter.

I don't have access to my chrono data, but I think they (180 XTP's) were running about that same 950 f/s through my 4" 686.

I have my chrono data now. With 13.3 grains of W296:
973 f/s - 686 3" bbl
1055 f/s - 686 4" bbl
1020 f/s - 686 8-3/8" bbl (yes, less velocity than the 4")

My 180 XTP's were spunkier than my memory recalled yesterday.

For your purpose, I think you made the right choice to move down to 165's, and going with straight lead. Also, the 2400 should serve your purpose better with the slightly lighter weight too. Well played.