10mm for home defense
- Thread starter elmrich
- Start date
I use my 1076 for home defense. It's loaded with Double Tap's 180-gr Gold Dot load, that does an average of 1290 fps out of my gun's 4.25" barrel. (For those who may wonder: Mike McNett of Double Tap has talked to Speer and they say their bullet will perform properly at those velocities; he encourages anyone who wonders about it to contact Speer directly and ask them.) I have extra power Wolff recoil and firing pin springs in the 1076.
Here are some other DT loads chrono'd through my pistol. The range was about fifty degrees Fahrenheit (Jan. 31, 2005), and at about 5300 feet above sea level. Here's what I got.
180-gr Gold Dot JHP: average 1291 fps, extreme spread - 38 fps, standard deviation - 15.32 fps
180-gr FMJ match: average 1198 fps, ES - 50.30, SD - 21.02
200-gr XTP JHP: average 1141 fps, ES 21.24 fps, SD 9.21 fps
200-gr FMJ-FP: average 1220 fps, ES 63.47, SD 25.31
The 180-gr Gold Dot load kicked noticeably more than the other loads, and threw the brass hell-and-gone the furthest (despite the extra-power Wolff recoil spring and firing pin spring I've installed per Mike's advice). I was quite impressed with its performance, though, and will darn sure keep carrying it as my walking-around-civilization load. I was surprised to see how mellow the 200-gr XTP load developed from the short 1076 barrel. I had been carrying that as my hiking load, but now I'm giving some thought to just going with the warmer 200-gr FMJ-FP load.
Incidentally, I'd been getting noticeable primer swipes, but installing the extra-power firing pin spring that came with the heavy-duty Wolff spring has almost eliminated this.
Hope this was of some help to you.
Here are some other DT loads chrono'd through my pistol. The range was about fifty degrees Fahrenheit (Jan. 31, 2005), and at about 5300 feet above sea level. Here's what I got.
180-gr Gold Dot JHP: average 1291 fps, extreme spread - 38 fps, standard deviation - 15.32 fps
180-gr FMJ match: average 1198 fps, ES - 50.30, SD - 21.02
200-gr XTP JHP: average 1141 fps, ES 21.24 fps, SD 9.21 fps
200-gr FMJ-FP: average 1220 fps, ES 63.47, SD 25.31
The 180-gr Gold Dot load kicked noticeably more than the other loads, and threw the brass hell-and-gone the furthest (despite the extra-power Wolff recoil spring and firing pin spring I've installed per Mike's advice). I was quite impressed with its performance, though, and will darn sure keep carrying it as my walking-around-civilization load. I was surprised to see how mellow the 200-gr XTP load developed from the short 1076 barrel. I had been carrying that as my hiking load, but now I'm giving some thought to just going with the warmer 200-gr FMJ-FP load.
Incidentally, I'd been getting noticeable primer swipes, but installing the extra-power firing pin spring that came with the heavy-duty Wolff spring has almost eliminated this.
Hope this was of some help to you.
stephen426
New member
You should consider using frangible ammo such as Glasers or Magsafes with that kind of penetration if there are other people in the house or if you live in an apartment building. 180 grains at almost 1300 fps is going to penetrate quite a bit and may endanger people in other rooms. The 10mm is also pretty loud and may cause more hearing damage than a lower powered round such as a 9mm. I know hearing damage is going to occur no matter what so you might consider this a non-issue.
The best home defense is a pump shotgun loaded with #4 or bigger shot. Most bad guys will decide they got the wrong house once you rack the shotgun and those stupid enough to stay will be met much much more force than even the powerful 10mm.
On a side note, why do they call it the 10 mm instead of the 1 cm? I guess the 10 sounds more impressive than the 1.
The best home defense is a pump shotgun loaded with #4 or bigger shot. Most bad guys will decide they got the wrong house once you rack the shotgun and those stupid enough to stay will be met much much more force than even the powerful 10mm.
On a side note, why do they call it the 10 mm instead of the 1 cm? I guess the 10 sounds more impressive than the 1.
BerettaBuckeye
New member
Sometimes a Glock 20 with Winchester 175 Silvertips. I just checked on these and found out they are at 1290fps and 649 ft. lbs....I think I'll look for something else for indoor use
stephen426
New member
Erich,
Please refer to the finding on theboxotruth . I am pretty impressed by their "scientific" approach to either proving or disproving misconceptions, myths, exagerations, and flat out stupidity. Interior walls don't offer much resistance to bullets. If you live in an isolated aread and don't have to worry about hitting people in other rooms, use a slug gun if that makes you happy.
Please refer to the finding on theboxotruth . I am pretty impressed by their "scientific" approach to either proving or disproving misconceptions, myths, exagerations, and flat out stupidity. Interior walls don't offer much resistance to bullets. If you live in an isolated aread and don't have to worry about hitting people in other rooms, use a slug gun if that makes you happy.
Stephen, I don't know about shooting boxes, but, I'm thinking more that most bullets don't have a lot of juice left after they hit a meat target.
I've worked on over 150 handgun killings as either a PI, consulting attorney or primary attorney, and I've only seen two injuries (that I can recall) from overpenetration. One was with a 9x19 fmj, and the other was a .40 fmj.
I think using 10mm fmj would be a bad idea in civilization.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think overpenetration is much of an issue. The 165-grainers do about 16" in 10% ballistic gelatin. It might actually fully penetrate a human target (if it didn't hit any bones, etc.), but - as I said - it wouldn't have a lot of juice left after doing so.
I've worked on over 150 handgun killings as either a PI, consulting attorney or primary attorney, and I've only seen two injuries (that I can recall) from overpenetration. One was with a 9x19 fmj, and the other was a .40 fmj.
I think using 10mm fmj would be a bad idea in civilization.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think overpenetration is much of an issue. The 165-grainers do about 16" in 10% ballistic gelatin. It might actually fully penetrate a human target (if it didn't hit any bones, etc.), but - as I said - it wouldn't have a lot of juice left after doing so.
stephen426
New member
Erich said:
Erich, you might be a better shot than I am but I still wouldn't count on every shot you take hitting your intended target, especially under stressful self defense situations. If you happen to miss, it is going to penetrate a few walls (unless you hit the studs) before coming to a stop. I am not talking about going through the bad guy and then hurting someone else. I know you may be experienced with actual shooting victims but what about when the bullet does not strike its intended target? That is why I would consider frangible rounds for home defense if I were to use a 10mm for home defense.
I wouldn't trust frangible rounds to penetrate enough.
Certainly misses will always overpenetrate. I don't know any handgun round with which I would feel comfortable missing someone in my house (although there's no one in the house but my wife and myself, and odds of actually hitting a neighbor are infinitesimal in our setup) - but missing someone is not a primary consideration for me. If it were, I'd probably stick to the use of a 20 ga. with birdshot (adequate in close-in shots). Perhaps we have very different residential setups - I certainly might feel differently about my 10mm if I lived in an apartment or a hotel.
Anyway, Stephen, you've certainly explained your position. I just disagree.
Certainly misses will always overpenetrate.
I don't know any handgun round with which I would feel comfortable missing someone in my house (although there's no one in the house but my wife and myself, and odds of actually hitting a neighbor are infinitesimal in our setup) - but missing someone is not a primary consideration for me. If it were, I'd probably stick to the use of a 20 ga. with birdshot (adequate in close-in shots). Perhaps we have very different residential setups - I certainly might feel differently about my 10mm if I lived in an apartment or a hotel. Anyway, Stephen, you've certainly explained your position. I just disagree.
The Immortal
New member
Both sides have made some compelling arguments for the use or non-use of 10mm frangible ammo. After reading some FBI shooting and wounding statistics, I would be very concerned about the effectiveness of frangible. I am also concerned about the over penetration that could occur, especially with the 10mm. I've seen some pretty close calls from a liability standpoint for insurance companies that have had to clean up the messes from a 44. In the end, if you were to have an intruder, I think a 10mm with frangible is going to be a pretty good incentive for him to vacate. His survival instincts, as the result of you having a gun, regardless of the load is a sufficient deterrent.
On another thread, some people were discussing the Desert Eagle for carry purposes. While I didn't post, it seems insane to even contemplate that. Imagine you need to use it, while you might be justified, the use of such a weapon for self-defense leads one to question competency, intent and purpose.
On another thread, some people were discussing the Desert Eagle for carry purposes. While I didn't post, it seems insane to even contemplate that. Imagine you need to use it, while you might be justified, the use of such a weapon for self-defense leads one to question competency, intent and purpose.
stephen426
New member
The Immortal,
While you feel that simply having a 10mm with frangible ammo might be a sufficient deterrent for an intruder to leave, don't bet your life on it. How would your bad guy know what it is and what it is loaded with? Are you going to yell "I have a 10mm Colt Delta Elite loaded with Magsafe Defenders. If you come in here, I'll blow a hole in you the size of Texas!"? I willing to bet that most bad guys have no clue what a 10mm is. Are you going to also yell that the 10mm can shoot a 180 grain bullet at over 1400 feet per second?
If you are going to keep a weapon for self defense, you need to accept the possibility that you might actually have to USE the weapon. With that in mind, you will also need to take all the factors such as power level, penetration, noise, ammo capacity, and accuracy into consideration. If you choose incorrectly, there may be some serious problems. For example, some feel adequately armed with a .25 acp or .22lr handgun. If they encounter an armed intruder, chances are they will not emerge from the situation unscathed. There have even been cases where a man was shot with a few rounds of .380 acp and still managed to kill the person who shot him with a knife. On the other hand if you choose a seriously overpowered round (I'm referring to things such as .44 magnum, slugs, and high powered rifles, not the 10mm), you will most likely have to answer for any damage you might cause from over penetration, especially if you hit and kill someone. Besides that, those rounds that were just mentioned are going to be very damaging to your hearing. That said, I keep a shotgun loaded with #4 shot - buck shot. If the 2 rounds of #4 isn't enough, it goes to buck shot after that!
10 mm frangible rounds have been proven to be very effective. The "ineffectiveness" only occurs when it has to penetrate barriers such as auto glass and car bodies. That is not their forte and limited penetration is the actual intention. I am looking at this from the standpoint that I will be shooting at a target that I can see (not hiding behind anything since I have to identify my target before shooting). Although I am a decent shot, I may miss. A frangible round will severely injure him but a stray round will not seriously injure another person (whether it be a family member in another room or a neighbor). If you are talking about carrying frangible ammo for concealed carry, shooting through barriers is a slightly greater possibility. I am not a police officer and I am definately not a SWAT officer. I won't be shooting through barriers. Chances are I will never have to use my gun, but if I do, it will most likely be in very close quarters with no barriers to penetrate.
While you feel that simply having a 10mm with frangible ammo might be a sufficient deterrent for an intruder to leave, don't bet your life on it. How would your bad guy know what it is and what it is loaded with? Are you going to yell "I have a 10mm Colt Delta Elite loaded with Magsafe Defenders. If you come in here, I'll blow a hole in you the size of Texas!"? I willing to bet that most bad guys have no clue what a 10mm is. Are you going to also yell that the 10mm can shoot a 180 grain bullet at over 1400 feet per second?
If you are going to keep a weapon for self defense, you need to accept the possibility that you might actually have to USE the weapon. With that in mind, you will also need to take all the factors such as power level, penetration, noise, ammo capacity, and accuracy into consideration. If you choose incorrectly, there may be some serious problems. For example, some feel adequately armed with a .25 acp or .22lr handgun. If they encounter an armed intruder, chances are they will not emerge from the situation unscathed. There have even been cases where a man was shot with a few rounds of .380 acp and still managed to kill the person who shot him with a knife. On the other hand if you choose a seriously overpowered round (I'm referring to things such as .44 magnum, slugs, and high powered rifles, not the 10mm), you will most likely have to answer for any damage you might cause from over penetration, especially if you hit and kill someone. Besides that, those rounds that were just mentioned are going to be very damaging to your hearing. That said, I keep a shotgun loaded with #4 shot - buck shot. If the 2 rounds of #4 isn't enough, it goes to buck shot after that!
10 mm frangible rounds have been proven to be very effective. The "ineffectiveness" only occurs when it has to penetrate barriers such as auto glass and car bodies. That is not their forte and limited penetration is the actual intention. I am looking at this from the standpoint that I will be shooting at a target that I can see (not hiding behind anything since I have to identify my target before shooting). Although I am a decent shot, I may miss. A frangible round will severely injure him but a stray round will not seriously injure another person (whether it be a family member in another room or a neighbor). If you are talking about carrying frangible ammo for concealed carry, shooting through barriers is a slightly greater possibility. I am not a police officer and I am definately not a SWAT officer. I won't be shooting through barriers. Chances are I will never have to use my gun, but if I do, it will most likely be in very close quarters with no barriers to penetrate.
Delta Elite with 8+1 of DoubleTap's 135 grain JHPs (1600 fps plus and similar penetration to the 125 grain 357 magnum, 12") and two back up mags of Double Tap's 200 grain XTPs (1200 fps+). If I have gone through the first mag I amy want something that is going to go deeper and penetrate cover better. The 200 grain XTP will certainly do that. There is also the school of thought that if light and Very Fast did not do the job then perhaps Heavy and just plain Fast would be better.
On a related note, the 10mm is MY home defense weapon, my wife is in charge of holding the stair well up to the family bedrooms with a Remginton 870. In reality nobody calls the police every time you hear a bump in the night, only if you are really certain someone is there. You simply HAVE to go downstairs and check things out sometimes. We have had windstorms blow out screen windos in the past, branches fall and hit the house, etc. We have a big dog downstairs who is also an excellent first line of defense. While a handgun is not the best man stopper you do have the ability to use your other hand for things like doors and windows, a flashlight or light switch without compromising your control. It is also easier to retain in a struggle. I like having a flashlight in a free hand becasue I would prefer not to sweep EVERYTHING with a loaded gun that has a light strapped to it. Simply put, I only want to point the gun at what I am certain I want it pointed at. With a mounted light that option is not present. That is my reason for having the handgun as my primary and the shotgun as my wife's. She is NOT going to investigate any bumps in the night and I want to know that if something did go way wrong downstairs that it would stay downstairs and away from her and our daughter.
On a related note, the 10mm is MY home defense weapon, my wife is in charge of holding the stair well up to the family bedrooms with a Remginton 870. In reality nobody calls the police every time you hear a bump in the night, only if you are really certain someone is there. You simply HAVE to go downstairs and check things out sometimes. We have had windstorms blow out screen windos in the past, branches fall and hit the house, etc. We have a big dog downstairs who is also an excellent first line of defense. While a handgun is not the best man stopper you do have the ability to use your other hand for things like doors and windows, a flashlight or light switch without compromising your control. It is also easier to retain in a struggle. I like having a flashlight in a free hand becasue I would prefer not to sweep EVERYTHING with a loaded gun that has a light strapped to it. Simply put, I only want to point the gun at what I am certain I want it pointed at. With a mounted light that option is not present. That is my reason for having the handgun as my primary and the shotgun as my wife's. She is NOT going to investigate any bumps in the night and I want to know that if something did go way wrong downstairs that it would stay downstairs and away from her and our daughter.
old_ironsights
New member
On my side of the bed is a Glock 20 with Texas Ammo's 10mm Express.
I like the capacity of the 20. We live in a rural area and it's just the wife and I at home now, so "over-penetration" just means that I have to patch the walls if I miss.
If I'm gonna face thieves stealing equipment, supplies or livestock - and I have - and can't get to my rifle, I want a handgun round that'll get there and do some damage when it does.
My wife prefers the little Glock 29, and she's a very good shot with it, even with full loads.
I like the capacity of the 20. We live in a rural area and it's just the wife and I at home now, so "over-penetration" just means that I have to patch the walls if I miss.
If I'm gonna face thieves stealing equipment, supplies or livestock - and I have - and can't get to my rifle, I want a handgun round that'll get there and do some damage when it does.
My wife prefers the little Glock 29, and she's a very good shot with it, even with full loads.
MTMilitiaman
New member
Someone on Glocktalk coined the term but I have quickly taken it to heart; when it doubt, get the twenty out. The Glock has a spot at the head of my bed, typically loaded with Double Tap's 180 gr Gold Dot load. Sometimes I use Silvertips, but I prefer the Gold Dots and really want to try the XTPs. Glocks and 10mms in general rock so when you put the two together, it is a pretty sweet combination.
Overpenetration is overrated. Underpenetration gets people killed. I get a laugh out of all the stooges loading fragnibles and birdshot in their defensive weapons. Consider a pressurized atmosphere cruising along at 600 mph 5 miles above the surface of the earth packed with 200 people and various cargo. You'd think if there was ever a time to worry about collatoral damage and overpenetration, it would be here. Do the Air Marshalls use fragnibles? No they don't. They use Gold Dots. Think of all the shotguns in all the cruisers and all the SWAT teams around the country. Birdshot? Not hardly. The FBI requires a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic geletin, even after penetrating barriers like 20 gauge steel, auto glass, and heavy clothing. They require this regardless of the size or profile of the wound. Why? Because it doesn't matter how nasty the wound looks or how well it blows up water jugs--if it can't make it to and through the vital organs regardless of shot presentation, you die. This was supported in a publication they released on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. Overpenetration they conclude, is grossly exagerated as a threat compared to the very real consequences of underpenetration. Maybe if I find myself swarmed by hordes of angry pigeons I'll get out the birdshot and the fragnibles, until then...I guess if it if you and your family, you can trust your life to whatever you want. But for me and mine, buckshot, moderate to heavy for caliber JHPs in a serious defensive handgun cartridge, and semi-automatic rifles rule the day (and night).
Overpenetration is overrated. Underpenetration gets people killed. I get a laugh out of all the stooges loading fragnibles and birdshot in their defensive weapons. Consider a pressurized atmosphere cruising along at 600 mph 5 miles above the surface of the earth packed with 200 people and various cargo. You'd think if there was ever a time to worry about collatoral damage and overpenetration, it would be here. Do the Air Marshalls use fragnibles? No they don't. They use Gold Dots. Think of all the shotguns in all the cruisers and all the SWAT teams around the country. Birdshot? Not hardly. The FBI requires a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic geletin, even after penetrating barriers like 20 gauge steel, auto glass, and heavy clothing. They require this regardless of the size or profile of the wound. Why? Because it doesn't matter how nasty the wound looks or how well it blows up water jugs--if it can't make it to and through the vital organs regardless of shot presentation, you die. This was supported in a publication they released on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. Overpenetration they conclude, is grossly exagerated as a threat compared to the very real consequences of underpenetration. Maybe if I find myself swarmed by hordes of angry pigeons I'll get out the birdshot and the fragnibles, until then...I guess if it if you and your family, you can trust your life to whatever you want. But for me and mine, buckshot, moderate to heavy for caliber JHPs in a serious defensive handgun cartridge, and semi-automatic rifles rule the day (and night).
Peter M. Eick
New member
I used a g20 with silvertips for years in my truck and a witness with silvertips at home. Now I am more practical. M1A with a 20 round mag and a Rem 870 for home and since I am in a city now, a 9mm for the car.
Mannlicher
New member
Go for it elmrich. The 10mm rocks.