03 C&R FFLs

[gyvel]

As of late, I have encountered (both locally and online) dealers who will not accept 03 C&Rs from purchasers because they claim "they cannot be verified by BATF." Is this really a major concern? I wouldn't think there is that much of a demand for 03 forgeries and the types of firearms that 03 holders purchase. Those that are "up to no good" generally are looking at modern guns, such as Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, etc.

Any thoughts or insights on this????

 

[rmh3481]

I think its by definition. Unless your buying a Curio or Relic (over 50 years old) then the license really isnt applicable.

 

[kilimanjaro]

It's not a valid concern, just posturing. There are dealers who are certain crufflers are, to a man, using their licenses to compete with them.

The BATF will verify an 03 license is current. You have to verify the holder is the same person, not an onerous burden.

 

[jag2]

This always kind of baffled me. Most people in the gun world really dislike all the paper work involved yet some refuse to accept it. I do agree its their business so they get to run it as they see fit and they are under no obligation to accept the C&R. All I can do is take my business elsewhere. Nobody has anything I need that badly and I do let them know (politely) why I am not buying their gun. I've even had some offer to reduce their price to cover the FFL fee but I decline. A principle is a principle, its not negotiable.

 

[tobnpr]

There are dealers who are certain crufflers are, to a man, using their licenses to compete with them.

Take a look at this seller...always a half-dozen or so C&R firearms for sale...
"Collector" disposing of a large collection (could be)? Or a guy with an 03 acting illegally as a dealer? Note that he is not an FFL.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=504431200

 

[kilimanjaro]

That's perhaps one licensee, but a dealer not accepting an 03 is losing a sale, how is that helping his business?

Instead of the 4473, the shop owner files the signed FFL 03, seems simpler to me. Wonder what they'll do if we go to a national firearms purchase card as a universal check, will they refuse them, too?

 

[dogtown tom]

gyvel As of late, I have encountered (both locally and online) dealers who will not accept 03 C&Rs from purchasers because they claim "they cannot be verified by BATF."

03FFL's cannot be verified by ATF EzCheck, which means the dealer must call ATF to check the validity of the license.

Is this really a major concern?

Yes. Any dealer who doesn't verify the validity of an FFL copy is engaging in risky behavior.

Any thoughts or insights on this????

Typically, the dealers who refuse to accept 03FFL's are doing so because they are ignorant of what firearms are eligible as curios & relics or they are unable to research the year of manufacture of that particular firearm. Pointing them to the ATF list is pointless, as is pointing out the fifty year old rule. Rather than educate themselves it's easier to just say it has to be shipped to a licensed dealer.

And that could be to the 03FFL's benefit. The cheapest way to ship a handgun is USPS. Mailing firearms other than rifles and shotguns is restricted to licensed dealers and manufacturers. The recipient must be another licensed dealer or manufacturer.

Ship a handgun direct to an 03FFL means using UPS Next Day or FedEx Overnight............depending on the value of the gun the cost could be nearly $100 (a $500 handgun from Dallas to Portland, OR via UPS Next Day with insurance and Adult Signature is $98.90 )

Ship that same handgun to an 01FFL via a USPS Priority Mail medium Flat Rate Box with insurance and Adult Signature and it runs about $23.00. If the dealer has a transfer fee of $20...........it's less than half the cost.

 

[gyvel]

Ship a handgun direct to an 03FFL means using UPS Next Day or FedEx Overnight............depending on the value of the gun the cost could be nearly $100 (a $500 handgun from Dallas to Portland, OR via UPS Next Day with insurance and Adult Signature is $98.90 )

This seems to be another misunderstanding of the law. An 03 FFL may RECEIVE a gun via USPS from an 01, but may NOT send it via USPS.

 

[carguychris]

An 03 FFL may RECEIVE a gun via USPS from an 01, but may NOT send it via USPS.

Not according to my understanding of USPS Publication 52.

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

From Pub.52 432.2, my emphasis in boldface:

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

• Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
• Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in Exhibit 432.25 and in 432.21 through 432.24.
• Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include adult signature service under DMM 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
• Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
• Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

My interpretation of the statement "...unless mailed between the parties listed in this section..." is that both the sender AND recipient must be on the list. Between = both.

There is a narrow exception for collectors, but it ONLY applies to antiques (i.e. pre-1899 and/or black powder muzzleloaders and replicas).

The "parties listed in this section" per 432.21 are:

Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties, and upon filing the required affidavit or certificate:

• Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
• Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
• Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
• USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
• Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.
• Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.
• Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 432.21c through e.

Manufacturers, dealers, importers, and LE/military/USPS/security agents are on the list. Curio and relic collectors are conspicuously NOT on the list.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.

 

[carguychris]

Typically, the dealers who refuse to accept 03FFL's are doing so because they are ignorant of what firearms are eligible as curios & relics or they are unable to research the year of manufacture of that particular firearm. Pointing them to the ATF list is pointless, as is pointing out the fifty year old rule. Rather than educate themselves it's easier to just say it has to be shipped to a licensed dealer.

+1. In my experience, dealers will accept 03 FFLs under 2 primary circumstances:

1. The dealer handles loads of military surplus on a regular basis and is very familiar with what they sell.
2. The firearm model is readily identifiable – i.e. model name/number is stamped on it in an obvious location – AND the firearm is listed in the ATF book BY SERIAL NUMBER RANGE.

My past attempts to use reference sources to prove build dates and/or identify not-so-obvious models ("...see, it's an I frame in .32 S&W Long with a shouldered backstrap and a 4" barrel, that makes is a .32 Regulation Police, yes I know that's not actually printed on it anywhere...") have been a waste of time.

 

[gyvel]

Deleted

 

[jag2]

All I can say is from experience (from a major auction site with monthly auctions) every C&R pistol I have received came via USPS. I would think this dealer had discussions with his local USPS to be sure he was in compliance.

 

[dogtown tom]

jag2 All I can say is from experience (from a major auction site with monthly auctions) every C&R pistol I have received came via USPS. I would think this dealer had discussions with his local USPS to be sure he was in compliance.

So..........despite what carguychris posted above, you think there is another secret USPS document that actually allows mailing a handgun to an 03FFL?

FYI "local USPS" doesn't make the regulations. It would surprise you to know how many dealers and manufacturers have never bothered to read a single word of USPS regulation.

BTW.......by receiving a handgun via USPS, an 03FFL is in violation of the law.

 

[jag2]

Just telling what my experience has been. Carguychris uses the words his "interpretation" and his "understanding" of the rules. If the rules were clear and concise we wouldn't be having these discussions, and it comes up a lot. I still believe a major shipper of firearms would have his ducks in a row. I have no idea who he consulted but if he was doing something wrong I think it would have been brought up by someone. As a general rule, in law and many regulations, that which is not specifically denied is deemed to be permissible.

 

[dogtown tom]

jag2 Just telling what my experience has been. Carguychris uses the words his "interpretation" and his "understanding" of the rules.

True, he does use those words. But the language in those regulations is so clear that there is really no other interpretation or understanding you could have. The regulations he copied and pasted leave no room for any other interpretation.

If the rules were clear and concise we wouldn't be having these discussions, and it comes up a lot.

The rules ARE clear and concise....the problem is people don't bother to read them.
Sadly, even after posting the exact citation from USPS regs, people will still argue.

I still believe a major shipper of firearms would have his ducks in a row.

Taurus doesn't. For years they have told people to just "mail us the gun".....ignoring USPS regs that clearly state otherwise.

I have no idea who he consulted but if he was doing something wrong I think it would have been brought up by someone.

Verbal opinions are worth the paper they are printed on. USPS regs on firearms are brief and easy to understand. I've had to educate more than one USPS employee on shipping firearms.......they don't know the regs any better than many dealers.

As a general rule, in law and many regulations, that which is not specifically denied is deemed to be permissible.

Maybe you should read the USPS regs above and tell us what isn't specifically denied.
('cause if you aren't one of the parties listed in 432.21 you sure as heck ARE "specifically denied". )